That you so much for succinctly describing this complex situation and for being fair. It is quite difficult to disentangle its biological and political components, especially when wokeness is becoming an overwhelming barometer of right and wrong.
My first thought was that the Italian woman was just a bit of a cry baby and sore loser. Algeria is not a woke country and drfinitely not a promoter of a trans agenda. The Algerian has lost a number of fights so clearly is not dominating the sport. So I will refrain from drawing conclusions until more information is available. It may be an intersex individual and that creates a different issue but this not an example of male domination in female sports.
I think you just identified the central point. The majority of Arab countries are both anti-women AND anti-gay. They may not "promote a trans agenda" in the Western sense, but they are only too happy if gay men themselves (and their parents) resort to Womanface to escape harassment. In Iran, the State even pays for the mutilation. "Would you rather have a trans daughter or a dead son" is on a whole other level in those countries.
Thank you! Your explanation is a great help in a situation that I don’t fully understand and media coverage does nothing to try to explain beyond typical political rhetoric.
El Mardi--she looks totally female--one ya wouldn't wanna mess with !--but her big muscles are gal muscles-- she looks strong as heck but she has a waist... softer features... (Jus' don't git me started on Big Mike tho'--now that First Lady warn't no laydee by me lol)
She's amazing. Mother of 3 kids I believe. Had a baby and went right back to boxing. No big deal. That's why I have so many questions about Angela Carini. I've been in the sport. I've never seen a boxer act like that. Never. You don't go all the way to the Olympics and quit like that and say you were hit too hard. And no blood. I would like to see an interview with her today. But no appearance on public. You'd think she'd want to show her injury to the world. Just strange.
Was it an injury or did she SAY it was one b/c it was something else--a verbal threat? An observation made in the locker room?
we don't know (yet) but GIVEN like ya said that ya don't just quit like that--an' ya ALSO don't git this far if yer a wimp--the entire story's off ...
IMHO something happened we don't know... It might be sumthin' ugly--or somethin' she saw ("in the locker room?") -- mebbe there was some romantic exchange that screwed up the match--on the part of either opponent but methinks mebbe the bigger one....who the heck knows--it might not have even come from Imane but ruther from her "team." Threats--an' enforced silence are a thing (as likely ya know) in high stakes sports. Lotta abuse...etc.
Re Angela--a couple times in my life I was threatened verbally by some scary dudes to the point where I changed my otherwise normal / bold-gutsy behaviors... So we don't know if something was said backstage or even by a coach... we just don't know...
As for El Mardi--how awesome! A mom too!
But if we talk about vibes... my El Mardi vibe was good / postitive -- "mighty"
My Angela vibe was that she's holdin' a secret that was so big she went offa her game... I don't sense snively wimp--I sense "knowledge" she cannot talk about...
My Imane vibe was a sense of menace-- no idea why--maybe the eyes? I cain't say...
Women's intuition?
This doesn't mean either /neither was up ta sumthin' or PUT up ta sumthin'... it all feels "off" but not this El Mardi ! (Readin' faces is like bread n' butter for us "acteurs" an' we also work off intuition--too woo for some but my instinct says there's a subtext we ain't seein'!)
Keep sharin' more if ya find more--I lose track now there are so many stories worth follerin'!
I heard Camille Paglia explain that when women’s study programs were created they didn’t know how to proceed so did so with literature. She opined that much confusion would have been avoided if it started with biology. You start with the norms with room for the deviations. We are ruled by deviations with no rules for norms. In Twitter one woman explained that intersex rates are higher in certain countries because of intermarriage. It was an interesting discussion for which dimwitted commentators vilified her for as if she was arguing for men beating up women. That said, I wonder if the Italian reacted based on a biological vibe. I recently had an encounter where I thought the man might hit me. It was a weird encounter and I wondered if I would have had the same biological fear if it had been a woman. I have no idea.
In yer last postin' I wondered if Imane was intersex an' DID display some "differences" at birth (possibly altered to make her appear more female?) So it's not her fault if she was "assigned" female at birth but her parents weren't told there were "differences?" really? Didn't "notice?" My understandin' is there are these differences... Here, it's an issue tho' IF the father DID know somethin' was diff. at birth vs tellin' the world that there was no indication whatsoever until puberty.
Readin' 'bout this syndrome: "developmental abnormality in secondary sex characteristics. This is a medical condition which can manifest with children being born with ambiguous or disfigured genitalia. " it's clear what I was suggestin'-- something likely was off--there's a Greek statue that depicts what "the condition" looks like -- all no fault of Imane's unless she/he lied....-- but now we also have the possibility of a doctor misleadin' the parents or the parents bein' not quite honest... i.e. not the child at all..
WHO KNOWS? However, if Imane is a girl--she appears (if that's her) as total "boy" in the interview clip an' my understandin' is that culture doesn't have girls serve in the army... so ya cain't have it both ways... (Unless yer Ketanji Brown Jackson who just cain't say lol!)
I'm less inclined ta blame these athletes that are pawns in the game... but we need ta look closely at the gamers... runnin' the entire program here.... (also at the coaches... I'm still thinkin' there's somethin' we do not know--something Angela maybe did? I cut both a lotta slack 'til we know more...) We also cain't rule out behind-the-scenes stuff.... I-Tonya kinda stuff.... (that whole story stunk too--the real one--not all was even covered by the moovie...)
But seriously, I'm glad someone made mention of the video interview. I want to know more about how that could ever fit into all of this. If true, it destroys the entire narrative.
ha, yup--an' it has a sorta trashy aspect too--truth was that Nancy Kerrigan wasn't an angel nor were her beginnin's much less humble than Tonya's--the moovie made up a lot... as they do! An' yes, this little clip could blow the entire narrative-- just like some of those ol' pix of "Brigitte" Macron--nothin' like archive.com an' some dedicated good research -- 'fore it's all erased--a gift to us all--an' it's great ya spotted this too--none'a this is in the MSM... I dunno what's real anymore let alone what's the truth ;-)!
looked again an' the new "angle" is YES she's a real "cis" woman & "shame on the right wing anti-trans media" includin' JK Rowling for callin' her trans... those evil... terfs! -- the MSM has taken up this angle so perhaps it was a plan from the git-go...? I dunno what to think--this one looks dude-ish ...guy/gal ?
I think they're laffin' at us... goin' "don't you know what a woman is?"--you evil "right/white supremacists?"-- meanwhile Angela has formally apologized...
Imho that looks like a male. I think the last few years of insane trans women are women activists screaming and threatening women have oversensitized me to the whole issue. I don’t really care what people do/dress like/sleep with… it’s their PERSONAL business and frankly I’d like to keep it that way. I don’t like over the top displays of sexual behaviour in public, Pride parades shouldn’t include naked men. I’d be much more able to treat all people with respect and dignity if they behaved with respect and dignity. We NEED to be able to discuss the issues calmly with reverting to “die terf”. Women have had to fight too long for their rights to abandon them to a small number of men. And the whole entire thing has been politicized beyond belief.
Excellent fact-based essay. Thank you for keeping to higher journalistic standards than most of the MSM, with the honourable exception of Oliver Brown at the Telegraph.
I agree! I’m still an NHL guy too and MLB. I was about to give up on the SF Giants but they finally fired Gabe Kapler who was more worried about his woke BS than winning games, but they fired him and I hope he never manages again unless it’s in the WNBA.
This situation has my attention, perhaps due to having 2 daughters, and girl grandchildren. My frustration with trans issues in our schools is maddening, making me more than a bit sensitive to threats to our girls. The Olympic boxing controversy may be an opportunity to clear some very foggy heads. Am i making a miscalculation in thinking gender in the Olympics should not be lengthy or difficult? The rules should be clear about what’s allowed in the women’s locker room. Near the top of the list would be, no “Y” chromosomes and no penises.
What is bothering me is that Imane Khelif has been boxing for some years as a female without any controversy. The obvious conclusion would be to revise the protocol to rule out any “unverified” tests with “controversial” results…
This is another great article ! Thank you for being so thorough but also not buying into the hype on either side. I think my issue with it is that neither of these fighters have given a press conference. I’ve looked in a lot of places and have to see one - either with press or online. Obviously they are not obligated to give one but in this situation wouldn’t you want to be out there setting the record straight ?
When you are in that kind of intense situation, even without the added controversy, you ignore distractions. I am sure this is what they are being advised. I would do the same. My focus would be on the fight on my goal, nothing else. When it is all finished, they can address the media.
I am sure there are women who are born without a womb, although I am not an "expert" and I think sometimes there is need for an expert--one that is rational, not crazy. Like so many other things that are suddenly thrown at us, I'd never thought about DSDs until now. It's everywhere now. And everyone has an opinion about how it applies to these two particular boxers. But it's all speculation at this point.
That you so much for succinctly describing this complex situation and for being fair. It is quite difficult to disentangle its biological and political components, especially when wokeness is becoming an overwhelming barometer of right and wrong.
It's given me quite the headache to decipher it.
My first thought was that the Italian woman was just a bit of a cry baby and sore loser. Algeria is not a woke country and drfinitely not a promoter of a trans agenda. The Algerian has lost a number of fights so clearly is not dominating the sport. So I will refrain from drawing conclusions until more information is available. It may be an intersex individual and that creates a different issue but this not an example of male domination in female sports.
I think that's the best attitude to have.
I think you just identified the central point. The majority of Arab countries are both anti-women AND anti-gay. They may not "promote a trans agenda" in the Western sense, but they are only too happy if gay men themselves (and their parents) resort to Womanface to escape harassment. In Iran, the State even pays for the mutilation. "Would you rather have a trans daughter or a dead son" is on a whole other level in those countries.
More info, one look at both the Algerian and Taiwanese should be enough
Thank you! Your explanation is a great help in a situation that I don’t fully understand and media coverage does nothing to try to explain beyond typical political rhetoric.
🙏
ps https://www.vh.ma/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/337289641_657193336212772_3366912938464591825_n.jpeg
El Mardi--she looks totally female--one ya wouldn't wanna mess with !--but her big muscles are gal muscles-- she looks strong as heck but she has a waist... softer features... (Jus' don't git me started on Big Mike tho'--now that First Lady warn't no laydee by me lol)
She's amazing. Mother of 3 kids I believe. Had a baby and went right back to boxing. No big deal. That's why I have so many questions about Angela Carini. I've been in the sport. I've never seen a boxer act like that. Never. You don't go all the way to the Olympics and quit like that and say you were hit too hard. And no blood. I would like to see an interview with her today. But no appearance on public. You'd think she'd want to show her injury to the world. Just strange.
To make matters worse, Carini has said she feels bad about what happened and wants to give her male opponent a"hug". We should not feel sorry for her
Was it an injury or did she SAY it was one b/c it was something else--a verbal threat? An observation made in the locker room?
we don't know (yet) but GIVEN like ya said that ya don't just quit like that--an' ya ALSO don't git this far if yer a wimp--the entire story's off ...
IMHO something happened we don't know... It might be sumthin' ugly--or somethin' she saw ("in the locker room?") -- mebbe there was some romantic exchange that screwed up the match--on the part of either opponent but methinks mebbe the bigger one....who the heck knows--it might not have even come from Imane but ruther from her "team." Threats--an' enforced silence are a thing (as likely ya know) in high stakes sports. Lotta abuse...etc.
Re Angela--a couple times in my life I was threatened verbally by some scary dudes to the point where I changed my otherwise normal / bold-gutsy behaviors... So we don't know if something was said backstage or even by a coach... we just don't know...
As for El Mardi--how awesome! A mom too!
But if we talk about vibes... my El Mardi vibe was good / postitive -- "mighty"
My Angela vibe was that she's holdin' a secret that was so big she went offa her game... I don't sense snively wimp--I sense "knowledge" she cannot talk about...
My Imane vibe was a sense of menace-- no idea why--maybe the eyes? I cain't say...
Women's intuition?
This doesn't mean either /neither was up ta sumthin' or PUT up ta sumthin'... it all feels "off" but not this El Mardi ! (Readin' faces is like bread n' butter for us "acteurs" an' we also work off intuition--too woo for some but my instinct says there's a subtext we ain't seein'!)
Keep sharin' more if ya find more--I lose track now there are so many stories worth follerin'!
Yep all possible. I didn't get the menacing vibe from Imane. But who knows.
I heard Camille Paglia explain that when women’s study programs were created they didn’t know how to proceed so did so with literature. She opined that much confusion would have been avoided if it started with biology. You start with the norms with room for the deviations. We are ruled by deviations with no rules for norms. In Twitter one woman explained that intersex rates are higher in certain countries because of intermarriage. It was an interesting discussion for which dimwitted commentators vilified her for as if she was arguing for men beating up women. That said, I wonder if the Italian reacted based on a biological vibe. I recently had an encounter where I thought the man might hit me. It was a weird encounter and I wondered if I would have had the same biological fear if it had been a woman. I have no idea.
I guess it would depend on the woman.
Very clearly put Karen - good job 👍
🙏
Wow, that's a wild find there...
In yer last postin' I wondered if Imane was intersex an' DID display some "differences" at birth (possibly altered to make her appear more female?) So it's not her fault if she was "assigned" female at birth but her parents weren't told there were "differences?" really? Didn't "notice?" My understandin' is there are these differences... Here, it's an issue tho' IF the father DID know somethin' was diff. at birth vs tellin' the world that there was no indication whatsoever until puberty.
Readin' 'bout this syndrome: "developmental abnormality in secondary sex characteristics. This is a medical condition which can manifest with children being born with ambiguous or disfigured genitalia. " it's clear what I was suggestin'-- something likely was off--there's a Greek statue that depicts what "the condition" looks like -- all no fault of Imane's unless she/he lied....-- but now we also have the possibility of a doctor misleadin' the parents or the parents bein' not quite honest... i.e. not the child at all..
WHO KNOWS? However, if Imane is a girl--she appears (if that's her) as total "boy" in the interview clip an' my understandin' is that culture doesn't have girls serve in the army... so ya cain't have it both ways... (Unless yer Ketanji Brown Jackson who just cain't say lol!)
I'm less inclined ta blame these athletes that are pawns in the game... but we need ta look closely at the gamers... runnin' the entire program here.... (also at the coaches... I'm still thinkin' there's somethin' we do not know--something Angela maybe did? I cut both a lotta slack 'til we know more...) We also cain't rule out behind-the-scenes stuff.... I-Tonya kinda stuff.... (that whole story stunk too--the real one--not all was even covered by the moovie...)
Sports git ugly when a lotta $$$ is involved...
Tonya stuff. 😂 I like that.
But seriously, I'm glad someone made mention of the video interview. I want to know more about how that could ever fit into all of this. If true, it destroys the entire narrative.
ha, yup--an' it has a sorta trashy aspect too--truth was that Nancy Kerrigan wasn't an angel nor were her beginnin's much less humble than Tonya's--the moovie made up a lot... as they do! An' yes, this little clip could blow the entire narrative-- just like some of those ol' pix of "Brigitte" Macron--nothin' like archive.com an' some dedicated good research -- 'fore it's all erased--a gift to us all--an' it's great ya spotted this too--none'a this is in the MSM... I dunno what's real anymore let alone what's the truth ;-)!
It's driving us all bonkers 😵💫
looked again an' the new "angle" is YES she's a real "cis" woman & "shame on the right wing anti-trans media" includin' JK Rowling for callin' her trans... those evil... terfs! -- the MSM has taken up this angle so perhaps it was a plan from the git-go...? I dunno what to think--this one looks dude-ish ...guy/gal ?
https://tinyurl.com/2unx5hty
I think they're laffin' at us... goin' "don't you know what a woman is?"--you evil "right/white supremacists?"-- meanwhile Angela has formally apologized...
That’s a guy.
Imho that looks like a male. I think the last few years of insane trans women are women activists screaming and threatening women have oversensitized me to the whole issue. I don’t really care what people do/dress like/sleep with… it’s their PERSONAL business and frankly I’d like to keep it that way. I don’t like over the top displays of sexual behaviour in public, Pride parades shouldn’t include naked men. I’d be much more able to treat all people with respect and dignity if they behaved with respect and dignity. We NEED to be able to discuss the issues calmly with reverting to “die terf”. Women have had to fight too long for their rights to abandon them to a small number of men. And the whole entire thing has been politicized beyond belief.
yup sure looks like one ta me! (tho' it's the game ta tell us we're dummies) I think WE are bein' played one way or an'nuther!
Outstanding! Thank you!
Excellent fact-based essay. Thank you for keeping to higher journalistic standards than most of the MSM, with the honourable exception of Oliver Brown at the Telegraph.
🙏
The only women’s sports I won’t watch is the WNBA and women’s boxing.
I understand.
I don’t watch the NBA either. I gave up on that when the NBA went woke.
I don't watch sports. I don't have time. And yes, all of that bending the knee disgusted me.
It appears all sports are turning in woke cesspools. Ladies tennis, pole vaulting and soccer are still on my watching list at this point.
I agree! I’m still an NHL guy too and MLB. I was about to give up on the SF Giants but they finally fired Gabe Kapler who was more worried about his woke BS than winning games, but they fired him and I hope he never manages again unless it’s in the WNBA.
MLB went WOKE when they ridiculously moved the All Star Game from Atlanta to Denver.
F A I L
This situation has my attention, perhaps due to having 2 daughters, and girl grandchildren. My frustration with trans issues in our schools is maddening, making me more than a bit sensitive to threats to our girls. The Olympic boxing controversy may be an opportunity to clear some very foggy heads. Am i making a miscalculation in thinking gender in the Olympics should not be lengthy or difficult? The rules should be clear about what’s allowed in the women’s locker room. Near the top of the list would be, no “Y” chromosomes and no penises.
What is bothering me is that Imane Khelif has been boxing for some years as a female without any controversy. The obvious conclusion would be to revise the protocol to rule out any “unverified” tests with “controversial” results…
Why am I obsessed with this story? I really appreciate your take on it with this post and your last post. Thanks for bringing calm and insight.
It speaks to our times. We all want to know the answers to these questions.
This is another great article ! Thank you for being so thorough but also not buying into the hype on either side. I think my issue with it is that neither of these fighters have given a press conference. I’ve looked in a lot of places and have to see one - either with press or online. Obviously they are not obligated to give one but in this situation wouldn’t you want to be out there setting the record straight ?
When you are in that kind of intense situation, even without the added controversy, you ignore distractions. I am sure this is what they are being advised. I would do the same. My focus would be on the fight on my goal, nothing else. When it is all finished, they can address the media.
Makes sense!
Thank you! This is the first article I have seen on this which is not spreading some falsity! You are doing the lords work. Thanks for going deep <3
You're welcome 🤗. And thank you for subscribing 🙏
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/
Not necessarily in boxing but isn’t "having a womb" also a traditional definition of female?
I am sure there are women who are born without a womb, although I am not an "expert" and I think sometimes there is need for an expert--one that is rational, not crazy. Like so many other things that are suddenly thrown at us, I'd never thought about DSDs until now. It's everywhere now. And everyone has an opinion about how it applies to these two particular boxers. But it's all speculation at this point.
Did you watch the "Woman with a Degree" who testified that men can have babies via their lower backside opening. Yes she did!!!
Another utterly unhelpful bit of info: IOC president Bach said the Olympics will “not take part in a sometimes politically motivated, cultural war.”
Oh really? This is why it’s hard to believe anything coming out of your lying mouth.
Are you an alien force put on earth to walk with other 'ALIENS"???