"If the traditions and culture of the East are blindly compelled to hurt a woman’s dignity, insult and degrade her in the name of cultural unity, then I am ready to burn myself." ~ Huda Sharawi
And what gets me about this? Women in the west moan about being oppressed, being repressed. And while I know there are women in America who do suffer-I grew up and live now in the poor Appalachian region-it is not anywhere close to being the mass wide systemic oppression that feminists claim. Women in the west have rights they easily take for granted that many women in Muslim countries who truly live under terror and real oppression scarcely let themselves dream of.
I mean, I don't want to denigrate what some women do experience. I know that there are women who are living with abusive men, who were abused by their fathers, their mothers, their families. I know I was sheltered and very blessed to have been raised in a Christian home and in a Christian environment. But I've seen what my cousin married into and the life she lived until her husband threw her out; I've seen the news stories in the area and the posts even here at substack of people describing what they watched their mothers live through or what they themselves lived through. I know those women deserve compassion.
But the thing is, those women DO have help; when they gain the courage to speak out, when someone comes to them and gives them hope and help, they can get help from their communities. It's not easy, absolutely not, but women here in America HAVE the option to leave an abusive spouse; they have rights in the courts systems, they can obtain an education, work jobs to care for their children, live in safety in their home and in their communities. They have support systems available that many women in the world don't have. They don't have to fear being hunted down and murdered by their own fathers or brothers for daring to speak out about an abusive husband; they don't have to fear the community shunning them or ostracizing them, they don't have to fear becoming pariahs or worse, targets for everyone for daring to speak out.
I get it that there are women in this country who live in squalor, in the inner cities, in ghettos or deep Appalachian hollers who think they are stuck, that its the only life they know and they don't even dream of anything better, and I feel for them and want people in place who can reach them. I'm not talking about these women who truly need help and comfort.
But the majority of women, despite what the feminists want to claim, enjoy many rights and freedoms and safety in this country. It's the "me too" hanger ons, its the women who whine about men looking at them, who want everything handed to them, who think men are all scum, who want special treatment that I have a big issue with. The feminists who sit in their ivory towers in academia or in business, backbiting and clawing their way over everyone else to the top, who sit in judgement in their safety and prestige but think they are "oppressed" because they couldn't get their latte grande with the right amount of almond milk this morning at their local starbucks.
these histrionic women have ruined life for many other women because of the lies they indoctrinated us with as we grew up, because even those of us who grew up in homes that were conservative, the feminist ideology still impacted.
You're correct. It isn't easy to escape abuse wherever you are, but as you say and I've said any number of times, women in the West have options. There are shelters, they can go out and get away job and people will applaud them for it. Not so in a Muslim country. There are shelters in Cairo, but the stigma attached you leaving your family is indescribable.
I am in awe that you did something so positive for girls in Luxor (and surprised you got as far as you did!) Your insight is spot on and expressed so well. I have been there and it’s hard to understand that even the few educated women we met and spoke with seemed to embrace their shackles. It also took a while for it to sink in that women were truly regarded as below men, such was my naivety and own belief that all people are equal. It is shocking. Seems like a lifetime ago.
I hope your lessons helped your young boxing students
Thank you. What really amazed me was how western women embraced those shackles. And now we see that Western women are even defending the terrorists that would rape and murder them. It's truly astounding.
I have only recently joined Substack and had not intended reading anything political- it was for humour, nature, love of animals and people. It was for relaxation! But it is such a deep relief to read quality, well articulated pieces about the terror happening in Israel at the moment, and the threat posed to the civilised world. I defies logic to me. Does no one read history, think logically, or believe what muslins tell us they mean to do?
I can only surmise that these western women are as naive as I once was when they initially became entangled?
Gorsh, I wondered how ya did that impressive feat--got the parents' OK fer the girls to join in as I cannot imagine they wanted ta promote self -defense an' power!
Also, it's a wonder these adults who seem ta never let their girls be "not watched" trusted 'em to you! Why, I wonder? To a foreigner? So that's quite something you accomplished, that these suspicious folks entrusted their girls to ya-- An' I bet it was kinda blowin' the girls' minds they had fun with an "infidel" no less?! I hope their lives see more fun than that one mem'ry ya gave them too...
Sad the parents never came ta cheer on their daughters--tho' mebbe Mahmoud set it up that way when he found the famblies in the first place--whatever he said?... Disappointin' he turned out ta be a creep....
But the girls--it really was about them an' yer sharin' the gift you had in teachin' 'em and in buildin' their confidence... Even indifferent parentin' cannot take that away... THEY were all that mattered in terms of all ya did...yes, a gift--an' one they can keep too! (the parents cannot steal away their lessons lol)
So you've changed these young lives, mebbe in a small way but an important one. These girls will NEVER fergit the unique experience ya gave 'em--the value of that joy of feelin' powerful an' strong is of course without price--as will be their memories--they looked SO pleased in the later shots (with the special shirts) vs wary in that initial one with their street clothin'-- So keep those later pix in mind--short lived 'er not... now they know there are different ways to live...an' fer goshsakes they now know they kin land a punch if needed! (may they never need it of course but in case they do!)
I hope Marwa's ok--in her little world sounds like she found a way to feel a little breath freedom...
I am sure Marwa is doing great. There's more I could write about her, but I have to keep my essays at a readable length. Haha.
As for the ceremony, Mahmoud had wanted me to have a big party in my garden, providing food for everyone, which would have meant catering it from a local restaurant and probably the prices being made higher for the occasion. After everything I'd already spent, I just couldn't afford it. In the US, the families would each pitch in, like a potluck, but that was not going to happen in Luxor. Everything was about getting something more out of you. It got exhausting.
Having the ceremony at Mahmoud's house meant there was no reason for them to come (and the mothers wouldn't have come anyway). No big feast. Just a ceremony to congratulate their daughters and there was no value in doing that.
that's good--bein' an outlier (in her own way) must put her at some risk...interestin' story 'bout her tho! (mebbe more later?) I know 'bout writin' "long" myself ha ha!
Ah, understood re Mahmoud's desire fer ya ta "shell out" fer a catered party--of course unaffordable--but the girls wouldn'a needed or even wanted that! His idear seems to be more 'bout capitalizin' on the moment vs just a celebration. Like ya said, imho too just bein' together with some mint tea (whatever is the tip-a-cal drink there) an' smiles would'a been enuf--an' normally yes, a pot luck! we homeschoolers do this all the time--it's fun--very little cost when a bunch chip in an' bring stuff from home. So it's still sad the girls didn't have their mamas and papas there even in a most small way--just ta congratulate their daughters an'... dare I say, THANK YOU? I don't know the customs there but ya'd think the parents would have been grateful... Mebbe they just "roll" so very differently...?
Bottom line is tho--the skills you gave those girls, the lesson learned in "can do"--cain't be taken away so that indeed was a great gift--an' as ya said, one ya couldn't offer today...things as they are
Oct 21·edited Oct 21Liked by Karen Hunt aka KH Mezek
I have read this article, and the other one you referred to: (the lost women of Egypt).
I empathize with every word.
I'm an Egyptian woman, however, I have experienced the same hellish cycle of the women of Luxor. Giving up one's money, intelligence, sanity, dignity, chasing the illusion of romantic love, with an opportunistic Egyptian man. (although I was in late 20's. You don't have to be a foreigner nor old to fall in their trap.) There should be a recovery group dedicated to women who suffer PTSD after relationships with Egyptian men. (Not to say that all men are like that in Egypt, there are of course good normal human beings in Egypt, with common sense and moral standards, who happen to be men. However, that does not negate the fact that what you have described in your article is a reality, and a pattern, specially for foreign women, who should be warned) BTW I have been to west bank in Luxor in a work mission once, and was proposed to by a man there. I'm glad I declined.
I have escaped Egypt 9 years ago. I now live in Japan. In quiet solitude. Sometimes I miss "the drama" of Egypt, and I contemplate going back. Your article came to me as a reminder of what it was like.
I hope that I, you, your friend Eva, and the lost women who have managed to escape Luxor, will find peace and reconciliation with years invested for hopes of a good future, for ourselves or in your case for the little girls of Luxor, only for it to be shattered, by people who cannot fathom the concept of love. I hope we don't lose our faith in mercy and love after all, and in my case, to sober up, and see things for what they are.
I salute you for your sobriety through it all. You are a champion.
Thank you. I look back on my time in Egypt with no regrets. It's was an amazing g experience and I'm glad I can share my experiences now with Western women as a warning although so many refuse to see it even when it's right in front of their faces.
There are support groups online, one is Women Married to Egyptian Men! on Facebook, although it's an odd mix of mostly women who've been abused by their Egyptian husbands with a lot of horror stories and then other women who have "reverted" to Islam and criticize the women who complain about their husbands.
Your comment about missing the "drama" is so true. That drama can become a kind of addiction.
Eva's real name is Gitte. When k first wrote the article she was afraid to use her real name but now she doesn't care anymore. We joke sometimes about go I no back for a visit, wearing burqas so no one will recognize us but of we are both tall (I'm 6 ft) and we would get found out. It's just a joke of course. Gitte did go back for one day because she'd had to leave her paintings behind when we left and she went back to get them.
What a difference it must be to live in Japan. I have never been there but would love to go.
It is a huge difference. Japan and Egypt. I still love Egypt very much and hold it fondly in my heart, even the horrors. It is such a complex culture, the complexity and chaos of it all makes me dizzy just attempting to rap my head around it. Perhaps that is what makes it intoxicating.
The plan about wearing burqas is hilarious :'D
I've met Japanese women who "reverted" to Islam and criticize the women who complain about the culture in general. Usually I just smile and wish them luck. After all, they have the safety net of their passports, even if they don't -yet- see it that way.
It is an interesting debate though, which makes one ponder what it is to be fulfilled as a woman.
I am not a defender of Islam. It is an evil faith. It is sad that the women seem to have more modesty than Westerners.
Islam goes too far in having women cover up and the West just lets everything show.
Women should definitely be able to have the freedom to wear what they want but maybe our culture has taught them they are supposed to dress like prostitutes. It shows a lack of self-respect on and demeaning to all women when this is the norm.
I am noticing that dresses are starting to come back into fashion for women where I live. It is a welcome change and is a classy look for women.
Another very interesting read. I enjoy all of your work, but these pieces on Egypt are especially fascinating. And the pictures really bring the words to life.
Great, great story! What a remarkable thing you did, Karen, by giving those young girls a chance to experience self-empowerment, however brief it was. I was shocked to learn how widely FGM is practiced in Egypt – over 90% practice it. An acquaintance who visited Luxor and lived in nearby Awan said many women never show face in public and when he was hosted by other academics or their assistants, women cooked food from behind the curtain and passed it to the living room through a slit, but never even came out. Yet FGM is a taboo in public discourse, unlike legitimacy of Israel, for example.
Yep. Women make the food and serve it as you describe. They will never sit with the men. They stay in the kitchen. But when it's just families, it can be more informal, but that's up to the man, how strict he wants to be. I will have more to say about women's role in the villages in my next piece. FGM is now illegal in Egypt, so to strangers or even foreign women married into a family there, they will often deny it happens. And as you say, it's a taboo topic.
I have to ask; did you ever confront the Slumdog Millionaire wannabe Mahmoud when you found out that he was engaged to be married while trying to put the make on you? The other thing that I find disgusting is that these college useful idiots in our country who support Hamas are compliant in the oppression of women in the Arab countries.
Yes, I confronted him. But as I said, there is no shame, he just lied again. By that point, nothing surprised me. As I explained, there comes a time when either you accept it and stay or you reject it and leave. I had to leave because I could not accept the lies. There is a way to stay, if you love the history enough and some women do that. It's like living under communism. There are certain rules to the game and if you know the rules and play by them, everything is clear. But I haven't told the heart of the story yet and I will do that next time.
What is astonishing is the incessant lying and scamming by the men for money. The photo of the man in the ocean with his child enjoying the beach while the mother stood there watching tells the tale of how women are oppressed in those countries.
One doesn’t have to wonder if these women were able to vote in this country how they would vote. They would vote for freedom! I’m voting Republican!
I think you have to look at it in the context of her life and when she lived and the courage it took to speak out. What she means is she is willing to live and die for what she believes.
And what gets me about this? Women in the west moan about being oppressed, being repressed. And while I know there are women in America who do suffer-I grew up and live now in the poor Appalachian region-it is not anywhere close to being the mass wide systemic oppression that feminists claim. Women in the west have rights they easily take for granted that many women in Muslim countries who truly live under terror and real oppression scarcely let themselves dream of.
You cannot even begin to imagine how much it frustrates me.
probably even more than it frustrates me!
I mean, I don't want to denigrate what some women do experience. I know that there are women who are living with abusive men, who were abused by their fathers, their mothers, their families. I know I was sheltered and very blessed to have been raised in a Christian home and in a Christian environment. But I've seen what my cousin married into and the life she lived until her husband threw her out; I've seen the news stories in the area and the posts even here at substack of people describing what they watched their mothers live through or what they themselves lived through. I know those women deserve compassion.
But the thing is, those women DO have help; when they gain the courage to speak out, when someone comes to them and gives them hope and help, they can get help from their communities. It's not easy, absolutely not, but women here in America HAVE the option to leave an abusive spouse; they have rights in the courts systems, they can obtain an education, work jobs to care for their children, live in safety in their home and in their communities. They have support systems available that many women in the world don't have. They don't have to fear being hunted down and murdered by their own fathers or brothers for daring to speak out about an abusive husband; they don't have to fear the community shunning them or ostracizing them, they don't have to fear becoming pariahs or worse, targets for everyone for daring to speak out.
I get it that there are women in this country who live in squalor, in the inner cities, in ghettos or deep Appalachian hollers who think they are stuck, that its the only life they know and they don't even dream of anything better, and I feel for them and want people in place who can reach them. I'm not talking about these women who truly need help and comfort.
But the majority of women, despite what the feminists want to claim, enjoy many rights and freedoms and safety in this country. It's the "me too" hanger ons, its the women who whine about men looking at them, who want everything handed to them, who think men are all scum, who want special treatment that I have a big issue with. The feminists who sit in their ivory towers in academia or in business, backbiting and clawing their way over everyone else to the top, who sit in judgement in their safety and prestige but think they are "oppressed" because they couldn't get their latte grande with the right amount of almond milk this morning at their local starbucks.
these histrionic women have ruined life for many other women because of the lies they indoctrinated us with as we grew up, because even those of us who grew up in homes that were conservative, the feminist ideology still impacted.
You're correct. It isn't easy to escape abuse wherever you are, but as you say and I've said any number of times, women in the West have options. There are shelters, they can go out and get away job and people will applaud them for it. Not so in a Muslim country. There are shelters in Cairo, but the stigma attached you leaving your family is indescribable.
I am in awe that you did something so positive for girls in Luxor (and surprised you got as far as you did!) Your insight is spot on and expressed so well. I have been there and it’s hard to understand that even the few educated women we met and spoke with seemed to embrace their shackles. It also took a while for it to sink in that women were truly regarded as below men, such was my naivety and own belief that all people are equal. It is shocking. Seems like a lifetime ago.
I hope your lessons helped your young boxing students
Thank you. What really amazed me was how western women embraced those shackles. And now we see that Western women are even defending the terrorists that would rape and murder them. It's truly astounding.
I have only recently joined Substack and had not intended reading anything political- it was for humour, nature, love of animals and people. It was for relaxation! But it is such a deep relief to read quality, well articulated pieces about the terror happening in Israel at the moment, and the threat posed to the civilised world. I defies logic to me. Does no one read history, think logically, or believe what muslins tell us they mean to do?
I can only surmise that these western women are as naive as I once was when they initially became entangled?
Yes, they are naive and many are desperate for love so they close their minds to reality.
Gorsh, I wondered how ya did that impressive feat--got the parents' OK fer the girls to join in as I cannot imagine they wanted ta promote self -defense an' power!
Also, it's a wonder these adults who seem ta never let their girls be "not watched" trusted 'em to you! Why, I wonder? To a foreigner? So that's quite something you accomplished, that these suspicious folks entrusted their girls to ya-- An' I bet it was kinda blowin' the girls' minds they had fun with an "infidel" no less?! I hope their lives see more fun than that one mem'ry ya gave them too...
Sad the parents never came ta cheer on their daughters--tho' mebbe Mahmoud set it up that way when he found the famblies in the first place--whatever he said?... Disappointin' he turned out ta be a creep....
But the girls--it really was about them an' yer sharin' the gift you had in teachin' 'em and in buildin' their confidence... Even indifferent parentin' cannot take that away... THEY were all that mattered in terms of all ya did...yes, a gift--an' one they can keep too! (the parents cannot steal away their lessons lol)
So you've changed these young lives, mebbe in a small way but an important one. These girls will NEVER fergit the unique experience ya gave 'em--the value of that joy of feelin' powerful an' strong is of course without price--as will be their memories--they looked SO pleased in the later shots (with the special shirts) vs wary in that initial one with their street clothin'-- So keep those later pix in mind--short lived 'er not... now they know there are different ways to live...an' fer goshsakes they now know they kin land a punch if needed! (may they never need it of course but in case they do!)
I hope Marwa's ok--in her little world sounds like she found a way to feel a little breath freedom...
I am sure Marwa is doing great. There's more I could write about her, but I have to keep my essays at a readable length. Haha.
As for the ceremony, Mahmoud had wanted me to have a big party in my garden, providing food for everyone, which would have meant catering it from a local restaurant and probably the prices being made higher for the occasion. After everything I'd already spent, I just couldn't afford it. In the US, the families would each pitch in, like a potluck, but that was not going to happen in Luxor. Everything was about getting something more out of you. It got exhausting.
Having the ceremony at Mahmoud's house meant there was no reason for them to come (and the mothers wouldn't have come anyway). No big feast. Just a ceremony to congratulate their daughters and there was no value in doing that.
that's good--bein' an outlier (in her own way) must put her at some risk...interestin' story 'bout her tho! (mebbe more later?) I know 'bout writin' "long" myself ha ha!
Ah, understood re Mahmoud's desire fer ya ta "shell out" fer a catered party--of course unaffordable--but the girls wouldn'a needed or even wanted that! His idear seems to be more 'bout capitalizin' on the moment vs just a celebration. Like ya said, imho too just bein' together with some mint tea (whatever is the tip-a-cal drink there) an' smiles would'a been enuf--an' normally yes, a pot luck! we homeschoolers do this all the time--it's fun--very little cost when a bunch chip in an' bring stuff from home. So it's still sad the girls didn't have their mamas and papas there even in a most small way--just ta congratulate their daughters an'... dare I say, THANK YOU? I don't know the customs there but ya'd think the parents would have been grateful... Mebbe they just "roll" so very differently...?
Bottom line is tho--the skills you gave those girls, the lesson learned in "can do"--cain't be taken away so that indeed was a great gift--an' as ya said, one ya couldn't offer today...things as they are
I have read this article, and the other one you referred to: (the lost women of Egypt).
I empathize with every word.
I'm an Egyptian woman, however, I have experienced the same hellish cycle of the women of Luxor. Giving up one's money, intelligence, sanity, dignity, chasing the illusion of romantic love, with an opportunistic Egyptian man. (although I was in late 20's. You don't have to be a foreigner nor old to fall in their trap.) There should be a recovery group dedicated to women who suffer PTSD after relationships with Egyptian men. (Not to say that all men are like that in Egypt, there are of course good normal human beings in Egypt, with common sense and moral standards, who happen to be men. However, that does not negate the fact that what you have described in your article is a reality, and a pattern, specially for foreign women, who should be warned) BTW I have been to west bank in Luxor in a work mission once, and was proposed to by a man there. I'm glad I declined.
I have escaped Egypt 9 years ago. I now live in Japan. In quiet solitude. Sometimes I miss "the drama" of Egypt, and I contemplate going back. Your article came to me as a reminder of what it was like.
I hope that I, you, your friend Eva, and the lost women who have managed to escape Luxor, will find peace and reconciliation with years invested for hopes of a good future, for ourselves or in your case for the little girls of Luxor, only for it to be shattered, by people who cannot fathom the concept of love. I hope we don't lose our faith in mercy and love after all, and in my case, to sober up, and see things for what they are.
I salute you for your sobriety through it all. You are a champion.
Thank you. I look back on my time in Egypt with no regrets. It's was an amazing g experience and I'm glad I can share my experiences now with Western women as a warning although so many refuse to see it even when it's right in front of their faces.
There are support groups online, one is Women Married to Egyptian Men! on Facebook, although it's an odd mix of mostly women who've been abused by their Egyptian husbands with a lot of horror stories and then other women who have "reverted" to Islam and criticize the women who complain about their husbands.
Your comment about missing the "drama" is so true. That drama can become a kind of addiction.
Eva's real name is Gitte. When k first wrote the article she was afraid to use her real name but now she doesn't care anymore. We joke sometimes about go I no back for a visit, wearing burqas so no one will recognize us but of we are both tall (I'm 6 ft) and we would get found out. It's just a joke of course. Gitte did go back for one day because she'd had to leave her paintings behind when we left and she went back to get them.
What a difference it must be to live in Japan. I have never been there but would love to go.
It is a huge difference. Japan and Egypt. I still love Egypt very much and hold it fondly in my heart, even the horrors. It is such a complex culture, the complexity and chaos of it all makes me dizzy just attempting to rap my head around it. Perhaps that is what makes it intoxicating.
The plan about wearing burqas is hilarious :'D
I've met Japanese women who "reverted" to Islam and criticize the women who complain about the culture in general. Usually I just smile and wish them luck. After all, they have the safety net of their passports, even if they don't -yet- see it that way.
It is an interesting debate though, which makes one ponder what it is to be fulfilled as a woman.
So true. It sounds like you've found your slice of paradise.
I am not a defender of Islam. It is an evil faith. It is sad that the women seem to have more modesty than Westerners.
Islam goes too far in having women cover up and the West just lets everything show.
Women should definitely be able to have the freedom to wear what they want but maybe our culture has taught them they are supposed to dress like prostitutes. It shows a lack of self-respect on and demeaning to all women when this is the norm.
I am noticing that dresses are starting to come back into fashion for women where I live. It is a welcome change and is a classy look for women.
Just my opinions.
Another very interesting read. I enjoy all of your work, but these pieces on Egypt are especially fascinating. And the pictures really bring the words to life.
Great, great story! What a remarkable thing you did, Karen, by giving those young girls a chance to experience self-empowerment, however brief it was. I was shocked to learn how widely FGM is practiced in Egypt – over 90% practice it. An acquaintance who visited Luxor and lived in nearby Awan said many women never show face in public and when he was hosted by other academics or their assistants, women cooked food from behind the curtain and passed it to the living room through a slit, but never even came out. Yet FGM is a taboo in public discourse, unlike legitimacy of Israel, for example.
Yep. Women make the food and serve it as you describe. They will never sit with the men. They stay in the kitchen. But when it's just families, it can be more informal, but that's up to the man, how strict he wants to be. I will have more to say about women's role in the villages in my next piece. FGM is now illegal in Egypt, so to strangers or even foreign women married into a family there, they will often deny it happens. And as you say, it's a taboo topic.
You transported me your story- again. Great to hear your stories in your voice.
FYI Technical issue: though clear, the recording/microphone volume was so low I could barely hear it with it turned up all the way.
Thanks i have a new microphone and I think I need to adjust the volume. I will record it again today.
I have to ask; did you ever confront the Slumdog Millionaire wannabe Mahmoud when you found out that he was engaged to be married while trying to put the make on you? The other thing that I find disgusting is that these college useful idiots in our country who support Hamas are compliant in the oppression of women in the Arab countries.
Yes, I confronted him. But as I said, there is no shame, he just lied again. By that point, nothing surprised me. As I explained, there comes a time when either you accept it and stay or you reject it and leave. I had to leave because I could not accept the lies. There is a way to stay, if you love the history enough and some women do that. It's like living under communism. There are certain rules to the game and if you know the rules and play by them, everything is clear. But I haven't told the heart of the story yet and I will do that next time.
What is astonishing is the incessant lying and scamming by the men for money. The photo of the man in the ocean with his child enjoying the beach while the mother stood there watching tells the tale of how women are oppressed in those countries.
One doesn’t have to wonder if these women were able to vote in this country how they would vote. They would vote for freedom! I’m voting Republican!
wonderful story, Karen. You are so wonderful. I am so proud to know you.
Idk I certainly would not burn myself over anything.
I think you have to look at it in the context of her life and when she lived and the courage it took to speak out. What she means is she is willing to live and die for what she believes.